Curse

upier · Jan 30, 2010, 12:49 AM // 00:49

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Originally Posted by byteme!

In an instanced world where all foes are static such challenges this would propose are merely short term. Once the populace have familiarized themselves with the new changes it's back to being easy mode again aka Build Wars. You have to keep in mind there are hundreds of thousands of players at any given time constantly trying to "break" the game with new builds, tactics etc...

In 8 man areas you shouldn't be running into 3-man groups which consist out of 3 guys of the same class or where the supporter is a smiter.

Also, my bad.
I should have worded it so that it would have been clear that better builds are a just a compensation for the removal of the monsters' buffs rather than making the game more difficult than it is now. There is no need to actively increase the difficulty - especially since that would happen already when the best skills would get trashed - the point is to just shift the area where the difficulty originates from.
For those of us that have wasted 1000s of hours on this game - HM would still be a walk in the park.

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Originally Posted by drkn

not really, upier. add recharge bonus to fast casting (in pve of course), revert cry of pain to it's original form and connect it to fast casting and you have a decent mesmer-only build available. there were loads of suggestions on it already in a few different topics, proven that certain buffs and changes should be enough.

Reverting CoP just shifts the problem. The problem of CoP wasn't that everyone was using it - the problem was that it was way to good.
We have 10 classes.
A system fix is needed, otherwise we just end up screwing a different guy.

The Josip · Jan 30, 2010, 01:09 AM // 01:09

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Originally Posted by Ginger Hunter

You couldn't be more wrong... The game is in such a sorry state atm, we don't need any more dart board buffs.

I see. So, other classes get ridiculously overpowered skills, and get a huge number of good skills, and mesmers should not be buffed because their trashy skills might come close to good skills of other classes.

You're suggesting that all classes are de-buffed (nerfed) to the level of trashy mesmer PvE skills? Is that is?

Get real. Mesmer needs buffs, lots of buffs. When mesmer is as strong as other professions, we can talk about mega-nerf that will include all professions. Being against mesmer buffs until that point is treason or sabotage, as you wish.

HawkofStorms · Jan 30, 2010, 01:35 AM // 01:35

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Originally Posted by lemming

PvP/PvE skill split does not exist to split every single skill that's used by at least one person that's due for a nerf.

Exactly.

The PvE/PvP split doesn't mean they should never nerf a PvE skill ever.

IoP was too good, in PvE and PvP, and thus needed a nerf. If it was on every mesmer's bar (it was on mine) it was too powerful. It's still okay now, just not as much.

The skill split is supposed to be used when nerfing/changing a functionality for PvP or PvE fundamentally breaks the point of a skill in the other format.

It is NOT an excuse to dumb down PvE.

Cuilan · Jan 30, 2010, 01:50 AM // 01:50

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Originally Posted by HawkofStorms

The PvE/PvP split doesn't mean they should never nerf a PvE skill ever.

You are correct, however, what happens when a profession has so few useful skills to where you can't even have a decent/fair working build? Means you have to rely on PvE skills and skills of other professions. The direction mesmers are going in (for all these years) is more and more towards that direction? I think it's a reasonable reason to split what skills they have left.

Lanier · Jan 30, 2010, 03:23 AM // 03:23

More buffs is NOT what is needed. PvE is incredibly easy as it is with whatever class you prefer to play. What is needed is more nerfs to the overpowered skills. That being said, I really dont see mesmers as being "weak" in PvE. Maybe they can't kill as fast as other professions... but so what? Mesmers are not intended to be a damage class (even if they do have access to many Ar ignoring damage skills). Mesmers are meant to disrupt and shutdown. If you would prefer play the role of a damage dealer, than choose another profession. Mesmer do not need buffs to their damage dealing skills because their shutdown skills are plenty powerful enough.

The IoP nerf was justified, as IoP was slightly overpowered. If the problem is that other classes get "rediculously overpowered skills", then nerf them. Mesmer's skills right now are not trashy, as they do what they are intended to do quite well. Like I said, if you dont want to play as a interupt/disruption oriented class, then stop complaining and play as an assassin.

Cuilan · Jan 30, 2010, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Damage, more disruption, or anything else. Have you played an interruption or e-denial build on a mesmer in hard mode? Illusion of Pain is that far overpowered compared to skills of other professions in PvE? I'm sorry, but "their shutdown skills are plenty powerful enough (in hard mode and useful in normal mode)" doesn't seem right with how the skills/foes are atm.

Reverting Cry of Pain's damage might mean the return of clean spike groups. The skill has quite a wide range, especially if people are still able to tank after SF/600 nerfs.

Some people may claim they don't want anymore buffs, but then that would mean Texas sized nerfs or leaving the lack of balance as is.

miriforst · Jan 30, 2010, 07:18 AM // 07:18

it only made it harder for non mesmers to use the skill to easily, and actually brings a use to fast casting more than that its nice to not have to stand still for an eternity to throw one backfire etc.

i was bored on all these wannabe mesmers elementalist with their insane energy storage pumping out mesmer snares with ridiculous energy cost and afterwards throwing in a IoP only because they want to do some dammage to.

it was nearly as abused as roj is in JQ by other proffesions (like you know all those "wammos gone wild" guys throwing roj on moving players because its a good skill)

i would like to see more of these skills lifting the degen cap to actually make some use in damage (like weaken knees, IoP, seeping wound)
the only thing i want now is the same with rangers but the problem is that they havent got any hexes, only the raw conditions wich is great for pressure but it gets frustrating when you have got a players health down to around 20% health mostly by degen for an eternity and a monk uses WoH or even worse RC and hes free to rampage again.

drkn · Jan 30, 2010, 10:15 AM // 10:15

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More buffs is NOT what is needed. PvE is incredibly easy as it is with whatever class you prefer to play.

pve is incredibly easy even if you run a blank build and just set a decent build (not even meta one) on your heroes. pve is not harder/easier (talking in general), it may be just slower/faster. it's how it's designed. the problem lies in limited options of your playstyle and comparison to other classes out there.

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That being said, I really dont see mesmers as being "weak" in PvE.

their weakness comes from the sole fact that they're designed for pvp. have you ever used any energy degen skills in pve? have you noticed, that if you run a shutdown build including diversion and other - well, useful - skills, you just cast five spells and then have to wand your foes, because everything is on the recharge? heck, there's even a mesmer-only insignia increasing armor when skills recharge - another completely useless crap. or maybe you're able to interrupt mobs in hard mode with cry of frustration or power spike? if so, i congratulate you.
if you haven't played hard mode at any decent level yet, that is - haven't completed at least one guardian or vanquisher - you know nothing about pve, and sorry for saying that.

a/d scythe sins are overpowered, w/d scythe warriors are overpowered, chains with death blossom can get to much more DPS than IoP ever had, RoJ deals more damage that is AoE and inflicts burning... want me to continue?
mesmers, paragons and dervishes are neglected in pve, out of which mesmers are the most hurt (yes, i've played para and observed dervishes and their whining a bit as well).

e:

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The problem of CoP wasn't that everyone was using it

it was. e/me on mindbender, especially. no one complained or suggested to nerf it before e/me (or, well, any/me) started to cryway everything.

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the problem was that it was way to good.
We have 10 classes.

other classes already have something cool. paras - imbagons; sins and warriors - scythe builds; monks - 600/smite, RoJ, versatile 55, (...); necros - minion masters, bloodspikes, excessive life stealing, wells. the list goes on. mesmers, at the very moment, have nothing unique (or especially powerful and mesmer-only or at least mesmer specific) to compete with against other classes.
i don't really see people rerolling to mesmers just to be able to cryway again. pugs would include the old mesmers but it wouldn't cause the same boom as shadow form - as everyone had to get a sin.

Lanier · Jan 30, 2010, 04:25 PM // 16:25

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Originally Posted by drkn

pve is incredibly easy even if you run a blank build and just set a decent build (not even meta one) on your heroes. pve is not harder/easier (talking in general), it may be just slower/faster. it's how it's designed. the problem lies in limited options of your playstyle and comparison to other classes out there.

their weakness comes from the sole fact that they're designed for pvp. have you ever used any energy degen skills in pve? have you noticed, that if you run a shutdown build including diversion and other - well, useful - skills, you just cast five spells and then have to wand your foes, because everything is on the recharge? heck, there's even a mesmer-only insignia increasing armor when skills recharge - another completely useless crap. or maybe you're able to interrupt mobs in hard mode with cry of frustration or power spike? if so, i congratulate you.
if you haven't played hard mode at any decent level yet, that is - haven't completed at least one guardian or vanquisher - you know nothing about pve, and sorry for saying that.

a/d scythe sins are overpowered, w/d scythe warriors are overpowered, chains with death blossom can get to much more DPS than IoP ever had, RoJ deals more damage that is AoE and inflicts burning... want me to continue?
mesmers, paragons and dervishes are neglected in pve, out of which mesmers are the most hurt (yes, i've played para and observed dervishes and their whining a bit as well).

So you admit that PvE is incredibly easy and you admit that it is doable with blank bars but you say that your options are limited? If you can do PvE with a blank bar, then why can't you do it with a "useless" build? Hell, iv run the standard gvg Power block build in PvE before. Sure it didnt do any damage at all (with the exception of shatter enchantment) but it was fun to play and it is the kind of build that mesmers are meant to use. Anyway, the point i am trying to make is that people do not play mesmers to clear areas quickly. Mesmers are meant to be a shutdown class, and although some may not see this as being useful in PvE, it doesnt change the fact that mesmers are meant to disrupt/interupt and not to have the high dps that sins have. If you want a build with high damage, then dont play a mesmer. Its that simple.

In response to your questions, of course i have played my mesmer in hard mode. He is my main character and i am currently working on both my guardian and VQ titles on him. Therefore, yes, I do know something about PvE. In addition, you ask if I have ever used e-denial in PvE? I have an energy surge build that i use. It uses E-surge, an arcane echoed e-surge, e-burn, and guilt for casters to deny energy while doing Ar ignoring damage. Once I see mind wrack activate (thus doing more damage) I use aneurism for the finishing move. Ill admit that it isnt the most efficient build due to the high recharges of e-surge and e-burn, but it sure was fun to play, and activating mind wrack was not nearly as hard as i thought it would be.

jazilla · Jan 30, 2010, 05:26 PM // 17:26

To be fair though, Mesmer is the one class that should have the most splits. There is a reason that most Mesmer bars in PvE are variations of a few good builds. There really are a ton of very unattractive skills in the Mesmer line for PvE. That is the one profession(with maybe Paras) that deserve a little more diversity in the PvE department. Sure, running a Mesmer in PvE works great, but there aren't as many options when it comes to playing one. I know this because of how short my template list is for my Mesmer as ooposed to my other classes, and it's not for a lack of trying!

drkn · Jan 30, 2010, 06:10 PM // 18:10

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Hell, iv run the standard gvg Power block build in PvE before.

in hard mode?

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In addition, you ask if I have ever used e-denial in PvE? I have an energy surge build that i use. It uses E-surge, an arcane echoed e-surge, e-burn, and guilt for casters to deny energy while doing Ar ignoring damage.

still, you've mentioned damaging skills. here's an incomplete list of totally pve-useless mesmer skills:
Arcane Languor (elite), Complicate, Confusing Images, Crippling Anguish (elite), Ether Lord, Feedback, Hypochondria, Ignorance, Mirror of Disenchantment, Panic (elite), Power Flux (elite), Price of Pride, Signet of Humility, Signet of Weariness

and skills that are nearly-useless in pve, used only at certain locations against certain enemies or that might do something in pve but they're inferior to even decent melee autoattack or something comparable (short: crappy, but can be used, just for fun, if you don't mind being useless in your team):
Air of Disenchantment (elite), Arcane Larceny, Arcane Thievery, Calculated Risk (inferior to necromancer counterparts), Discharge Enchantment, Energy Drain (elite) (wouldn't be that bad if it wasn't elite, but normal skill in fast casting), Fragility (unless you're fueling discord or try weak mandragor-in-a-box), Frustration, Guilt, Illusionary Weaponry, Lyssa's Balance, Mistrust, Persistence of Memory, Psychic Instability, Shame, Signet of Recall, Spirit of Failure (inferior to other options), Stolen Speed (elite), Symbols of Inspiration (elite) and pretty much all interrupts in hard mode, including a few elites.

our biggest problem is high energy cost and very long recharges on nearly every skill. panic is the most useless skill i can think about, but not the only one i can't imagine being used.

and instead of changing or buffing anything, so it might be useful even in some certain builds, ANet keeps nerfing mesmers, mainly because other primairy classes abuse mesmer skills in their builds.

Lanier · Jan 30, 2010, 07:09 PM // 19:09

The IoP nerf really didnt change much. It is still a very useable skill, it just takes more skill now to use. The high energy cost really isnt a problem on mesmers, as the inspiration line grants access to many powerful energy management spells (power drain, drain enchantment, auspicious incantation, leech signet, etc.). Normally, power drain and drain enchantment are sufficient for e-management, but in areas without many casters or where the casters only use spells that cast fast, auspicious and Gole can be used as well.

I will admit however, that some of the recharges are a little long.

Yes, i ran the PB build in HM. I think i was vqing somewhere in kourna. My heroes and my friend's heroes did pretty much all of the damage, but i had fun interupting fireballs and shaming the monks.

generally, I find that interupting 2sec casting or above spells in HM is still pretty easy. If i want to bring lots of rupts in HM, however, i generally will bring a spell like frustration or migraine.

I'v used panic before in PvP, though i find that there generally are better skills for e-denial. Its not completely useless though.

But the point i am trying to make is that mesmers are NOT a damage oriented class. I feel as though all you want to do in PvE is strait up damage, which admittedly probably is the most speedy way to beat PvE. However, if this is how you want to play PvE, then dont play as a mesmer. Mesmers are not intended to pump out as much damage as sins or warriors or even elementalists. Mesmers are meant to disrupt and interupt and if you do not want to play this role in PvE, then play a different profession. Mesmers are powerful enough in the role they are intended to play, and they certainly dont need anymore buffs.

Reverend Dr · Jan 30, 2010, 07:10 PM // 19:10

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Originally Posted by Lanier

mesmers are NOT a damage oriented class.

Why bring disruption/denial when in the same amount of time you can just kill the mob?

PvP: spend 15-30 minutes trying to kill 8 targets

PvE: spend 15-30 minutes killing 800 targets

This is the fundamental difference between the two and why the mesmer can be incredibly powerful in PvP and at the same time bottom tier in PvE.

drkn · Jan 30, 2010, 08:16 PM // 20:16

so, you say mesmer is built for denial and shutdown. aka indirect protection, as not letting your enemies to hit you with spells is a way of protection.
even then, there are lots of skills useless in the means of support. the long recharge, high costs, conditional usage, need of reflex for interrupts and so so on is still much inferior to any direct protection, be it a monk, ritualist or imbagon.

a lot of skills is just a copy of others (not talking only about many actual copies, but loads are very similar to others in the effect). a lot of skills are oriented for general disruption, which - as a playstyle - is inferior in pve to any other option, as careful disruption is designed solely for pvp.

reaper with no name · Jan 30, 2010, 08:28 PM // 20:28

It doesn't matter why the mesmer is weak in PvE. It is, and that needs to be fixed. It doesn't matter that they aren't intended to do damage (assassins aren't mean to tank or do AoE damage, ritualists aren't meant to use scythes, elementalists aren't meant to heal, rangers aren't meant to throw spears, etc). Damage and damage prevention wins PvE. So, either PvE needs to be given a serious rework, or Mesmers need to be given a way to do one of those two things so that it can at least compete with the other classes in the game.

Lanier · Jan 30, 2010, 08:57 PM // 20:57

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Why bring disruption/denial when in the same amount of time you can just kill the mob?

Because I find disruption to be far more fun than direct damage. Thats the whole reason why I play mesmer in PvE.

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This is the fundamental difference between the two and why the mesmer can be incredibly powerful in PvP and at the same time bottom tier in PvE.

I agree completely. I play mesmers because they are fun, not because they are a high-end PvE class. The whole concept of the class is oriented towards the PvP playstyle. I mean i still play mine in PvE but i realize that shutdown is far more useful in PvP than in PvE.

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general disruption, which - as a playstyle - is inferior in pve to any other option, as careful disruption is designed solely for pvp.

I never said the playstyle of disruption was superior to direct damage or to direct healing/protting. What I am trying to say is that mesmers shouldnt be a direct damage or a direct healing/protting class.

As I have seen Upier say many times in the past, there are 10 different professions. Therefore, not every profession can be the fastest or most damage-oriented profession. Every profession needs to have different roles. The mesmer profession is not a Dps-oriented profession, and there are already plenty of dps-oriented professions out there. Why make another one? Like I have said, if you want to speed through PvE, play as a sin.

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Damage and damage prevention wins PvE. So, either PvE needs to be given a serious rework, or Mesmers need to be given a way to do one of those two things

Why? Monks/eles prevent damage. the physical professions are (arguably) the best damage professions. If you want to play as a damage prevention class, play as a monk. If you want to play as a damaging class, play as a sin. If there are only two aspects that win PvE, then there are going to be many professions that are left out.

Now I would argue that mesmers are not "bad" at PvE. Sure they can't VQ an area as fast as a sin but they are only going to be ~5 minutes slower if the same hero tactics, route, etc. are chosen. If you want to use a profession that "wins" PvE the fastest, the solution is simple. Rather than having Anet make the game even easier than it is, just choose the profession that will get you through the fastest.

Smarty · Jan 30, 2010, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Nice arguments Lanier, and I agree with you when it comes to playing on your own H/H - you can do whatever is most fun to you on whatever class you like - but that doesn't cover grouping in PvE. As soon as you want to play with another person, either in a PUG or in a friends or guild group, doing a ZQ or a VQ or a dungeon or an elite area, if your main is a mesmer you're screwed. People just do not want to waste a party spot on a class that doesn't contribute as much as other classes to getting the job done faster.

Mesmers need better options in PvE, outside of AP ebon sin spam, to make them on a par with the main classes, and sadly that revolves around damage not around shutdown (unless PvE is reworked so that shutdown is valuable). See any one of the many threads that have complained about mesmers in PvE over the years for further details.

drkn · Jan 30, 2010, 09:59 PM // 21:59

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Therefore, not every profession can be the fastest or most damage-oriented profession. Every profession needs to have different roles.

so why almost all other professions can play almost ALL the roles? take a monk - healer, protector, uber farmer, with some tweaks even runner and one of the best damage dealer in game. take a ranger - great and fast runner, damage dealer, condition spreader AND interrupter. take sin - best runner, high damage through usage of scythe and the best tank before sf gets nerfed (if it happens). take elementalist - one of the best farmers, high damager, decent ability to knockdown (so interrupt as well) and one of the best healers/tanks for hard mode. even dervish can do better - you can choose to be a damage dealer, tank with loads of enchantments or even a runner (vow of silence rocks and once sf is nerfed, i believe that dervishes will be the most desired class to do the droks run).
it's not only the problem that mesmers suck in pve compared to other classes, it's even wider - there's nothing a mesmer can do that another profession couldn't do the same well or even better. direct/indirect prot? sure - monks and rits; conditions (going by mandragor-in-a-box type of builds) - rangers; interruptions? rangers again. any survivability or farming? ha!...

and after a while, if there's a lot of longer fights, playing mesmer is simply boring. when you have to wand your foes or run back and wait until your skills recharge or there's any opportunity to use one of them, you do nothing - just wait bored, contributing nothing to the team. even running a spiritmancer is now less annoying in long fights, albeit everything you have to do is summon spirits and resummon them from time to time.

Lanier · Jan 30, 2010, 10:11 PM // 22:11

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Originally Posted by drkn

so why some professions can play ALL the roles? take a monk - healer, protector, uber farmer, with some tweaks even runner and one of the best damage dealer in game. take a ranger - great and fast runner, damage dealer, condition spreader AND interrupter. take sin - best runner, high damage through usage of scythe and the best tank before sf gets nerfed (if it happens). take elementalist - one of the best farmers, high damager, decent ability to knockdown (so interrupt as well) and one of the best healers/tanks for hard mode.
it's not only the problem that mesmers suck in pve compared to other classes, it's even wider - there's nothing a mesmer can do that another profession couldn't do the same well or even better. direct/indirect prot? sure - monks and rits; conditions (going by mandragor-in-a-box type of builds) - rangers; interruptions? rangers again. any survivability or farming? ha!...

Im not going to adress farming or running because i personally dont want to farm or run (with any profession really), and neither is an aspect of general PvE (vanquishing, missions, dungeons, etc.)

As for interupting, i would say that mesmers are superior to rangers as they have everything rangers have when it comes to interuption + more. Mesmers have interupts that do all types of things.

mesmers do not tank well... nor do they do damage well... nor do they spread conditions well. What mesmers do better than any other class is interupt and disable. Maybe it is true that mesmers are more "limited" in what they can do more efficiently than other professions, and maybe it is true that mesmers can not do the stuff that makes PvE "faster" than other professions, but mesmers do interupt and disable better than any other class. Therefore, you can't say "everything a mesmer can do, another profession can do better".

But we are getting off topic. The original point of this thread was to say "stop nerfing mesmers". I do not think mesmers should be nerfed, but in my opinion, they do not any buffs either, as PvE is easy enough already.

Cuilan · Jan 30, 2010, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Having PvE splits likely won't ever change mesmers from being a shutdown or disruption profession, especially in PvP. If you take a much closer look at mesmers, they are a damage profession, too. One would think everyone posting here would already know that there is a load of cross over between roles in PvE. I'm fine with mesmers being good at shutdown in PvE if it were actually useful or at least a damage build that offers some sort of shutdown with it. At this time however the profession isn't able to do any of that well.

You have Fevered Dreams and Extend Condition builds, but they're very fragile to the smallest slip ups due to the various illusion and inspiration energy skills.

I don't recall anyone (directly flat out) saying mesmers should be a heal or protection profession, but you'd think their interrupts and manipulation would have some form of purpose.

Many players including myself still play with guildies, pugs, and friends. It's not fun letting them down.